that speech and i think he will lay that out again tonight. last opportunity for him to have done that wags in the state of the union. >> charlie:everybody weants the economy to grow. broad principles everybody agrees on, is it not? what we want to do know is what

his plan is to get there. >> he will lay that out. if you go back and look at the last year and 3 yawrs now, he's been specific on things. they haven't gotten done. we have numerous votes in the senate on jobs bill last fall that were very specific. he put out a budget with pieces. they were batein theenate, never in the house but those were specific ideas that were never really -- no one on the other side really wanted to negotiate on those. they had their own agenda. >> charlie:she say you were never prepared to negotiate on entitlements. the. >> the speaker knows that's different. we were in goargses and we had lots of conversations and the president publicly talked about the need for democrats to understand that we had to go with some difficult decisions. >> chlie:boehner speaker of the house same question i was

prepared to make the deals on the revenue side but the president came back to me and said, i need more revenue and that's what in the end ruined the deal. >> what happened really in my opinion what really ruined the deal if you remember we had been waiting and waiting for the gang of 6 to come out with a plan. they came out 30 some republican senators said they would sign on board to what trillion 200 bill i don't know dollars of ref nie. we were merely trying to get out of speaker boehner 800 bill i don't know obviously over 10 years. we went back to him not as a condition but said, look, if we are going to get the votes. >> charlie:right. >> democratic vote in the senate, we must -- and he had never and his leadership team had never gone through any count on the man we were working on as to what votes they had. it was pretty simple for me to say, look, if we were all going

to have a hard time getting votes you would have a hard time with 800 bill i don't know. when senate republicans have signed on board to 400 bill i don't know more than we were agreeing to say how were -- we have to take a look at whrrnts this deal we have been talking about private can get the votes. this was all about trying to get the votes and it was our opinion at that time that we ought to look at trying to get a little more revenue to get more votes but it was not either or. >> charlie:that's the first i heard that explanation. i don't know if you talked about that before or not. that's the first time i heard that. you're basically say yes indeed you did say we needed revenue but it's because we have a commitment in the senate from republicans in the senate that they need this in order to get their votes. >> obviously democrats would have said, wait a minute how bad of negotiators are you people? you have republicans saying they would sign on board 1.2-trillion

and you settle for 800-billion. what is wrong with you people. it was about an ackwledgement this was making it more difficult for us to get democratic votes if you would republicans willing to be courage us and stand up saying they were for 1.2 trillionlion in revenue. that sent us in a difficult swaying. the speaker had a sense his caucus was grg to have a hard time taking 800 billlion of revenue. if fell through. >> charlie:how will that be different if the president is he re-elected and house is controlled by republicans? >> we are facing a bob reuben id we are on the titanic looking at the iceberg. we haven't hit it yet but it's right there. in january of this coming year, you will have all tax cuts expire and you will have a see questionings strayings,

continuation -- you have defense and you have more domestic cuts. we cut almost a trillion dollars a year ago on the table is 1.2-trilli plus the tax cuts in '01 expiring. >> charlie:we know that and people have been talking about that. what makes you think the president will convince the republicans if he's elect gend titanic is facing the iceberg? >> first feel all they had have to acknowledge this debate has gone on american people have spoken. there will be a point people really do have to govern. i do not believe that the leadership and the republican members of the congress are irresponsible. maybe it's everybody is going to look down in the abis and say you know what we may want to continue our tbains but this has

gotten much more serious. and if by chance europe doesn't get their straightened out, then you're talking about a rather difficult situation in early '13: so i'm an optimist i do meef the system can work. if it can't work when you're looking at the iceberg then we have the discussions will shift to a fundamental discussion of does our stem function as it was set up 300 years ago in a way that's responsible to the american people. >> charlie:how do you think barack obama will be different in the second term if he wins? >> my sense is a re-election in many ways, not liberates but gives a president the opportunity to really deal long-term because they're not in the political gain as early. >> charlie:if in fact that's true, you must know the head and mind of this guy. where do you think he would like

to take the kun trillion in a big way. in terms of whether it's relationshipness the middle east or economic model for the future? >> my sense is that strength in the economic model and making it fair. nothing happens if we don't deal with the long-term fiscal problems. you are not going to get economic growth that's sustainable if we don't solve the long-term fiscal problem. it's not as though we can kick the can and statementope we get economic growth. it will not happen if we don't -- i think he understands. in order to do all the other things he may want to do in energy and immigration and all these other things and to see some better opportunities for people, educational opportunities, it's not going to happen if we don't address the long-term fiscal problems. not only because the cliff is right in front of us but the hole is just too big to avoid.

we cannot get around this thing. >> charlie:had youame, there were many, many ople i remember all the conversations i had and interviews i did said this is such a good choice. bill daily knows america, corporate community, democratic party and he will help with the problem that the president has with the business community. did you do that? >> i did a fantastic job on that. >> charlie:what's your evidence? that was a joke. >> the truth of the matter isfis people are republicans so let's get that the tableand i think there has been a strong misunderstanding of the president's relationship with the business community. he did not come from the business community, obviously. when ul run against as he's doing right now governor romney who has a long business careeren affinity by him because he's one

of them understandable. 4 years ago comeument organizers associated with barack obama because that was his career many years ago. from the very beginning because of the depths of the problems in our economy the action president took gm bailout, a lot of people in business felt it was a mistake. i think he has been proven right krmpleght some say it may be crucial in states that might give him the presidency. >> i think it was also crucial in helping as president clinton said to put the foundation underneath the collapse going on. not just politically. i don't think in january of '09 as this things was melting down, the president and his advisors no matter how political they may be, gee, in '12, ohio, michigan. >> charlie:they were doing what they thought was best for the country. >> exactly.

ill think it's been proven to be the right decision. not one favorable among the business community at the time to be frank with you. i saw that. there was a sense that this is interference that shouldn't take place. but if you're the captain of the team you will do whatever it takes within rean to save that team and that's how president saw it. >> charlie:would the business community say the president was right? >> i think a lot will still say it's wrong. >> charlie:mitt romney is one of them. >> they thought the normal bankruptcy process should have taken place. that could be two or three years. look at the airlines. >> charlie:bigger idea this isen treution of government having less to do with the emergency in the economy and unemployment. >> but when you're not the captain of the team, you can have those sort of observations. when on the field and you're the captain you have to make a split decisions.

i think he made the right decision. mill won people jobs and related jobs saved think so. >> charlie:beyond the history where you came up whether tweas law, community organizer or community environment whether it has to do with wall street or run ago company, do you think they fundamentally didn't get each other? they have to talk to each other because you brought them together. >> i think tre were -- one of the things, also, that the president's rise, in a short period there are' weren't he those long relationship tion. president clinton was governor for many years, around for many yeergs. if he have didn't run for president he was around the president, traveled the world. all that was celebrated in '08 about the short period tbhi president obamas with a involved in politics and government. impact of that was thought could

have on the american people and sort of celebrating that as the outsider who suddenly was in the biggest game one would e could imagine that in many ways because there weren't those long relationships with ep many of those people, they had a certain sinicism and skepticism about him that i think. >> charlie:existed. >> exist today and were magnified during the crisis of '09 and '10 and then at least in the financial service sector when you went to do dot frank then it made it worse in that sector. as they were going thank you fundamental transformation tion in many of those businesses if not businesses becoming exstingt in the financial. >> charlie:here comes the question you've bean asked more than once: so you've known bill clinton for a while barack owe bam march for a while euch' been work, up close with both of them. how are they different?

>> first you start with the personalities. president obama is a someone who as president clinton described last night, there's a little less drama around him. >> charlie:passion on the middle. >> exactly. that's real. it is real. and people come to this business of politics and governing from different histories and bill clinton's was somebody who vesm was a street retail politician who over many years one s les. >> charlie:ap progressive conservative -- >> progressive in a conservative state. i understand the moderation. you couldn't be too progressive and get re-elected. he was forced to be in the middle many ways. president obama and i really believe this when i came into office after the republicans took control of the house that

there was a real opportunity there to do -- i saw with clinton and gingrich, nafta, host of things with president clinton and gingrich. i thought this was an opportunity because of president obama's style and philosophy that he and boehner could do a deal. >> charlie:the great grand bargain they both wanted. >> one of my miscalculations was the depth of the difficulty of the leadership of the house republicans to convince their caucus as to where i think they thought they needed to go and that was to a big deal. >> charlie:i'm not convinced the tea party members. >> i think it was -- that wing of that party of that caucus of which the leadership of the house didn't create -- again gingrich created the revolution, elected the members, drew up the

platform and drove the platform. tea party takeover basically of the republican house was not crafted. >> charlie:in washington. >> by bain he were or leadership of the house. they kind of rode the wave. so when those people came to washington, they looked at the leadership of their own group as ok we'll talk to them like anybody else. >> charlie:exactly. it's not about me be here because of may relationship with the constituents at home. >> so the thought the speaker could deliver that maybe i would say maybe on my part was a miscalculation. >> charlie:thank you. back in a moment. stay with us. >> charlie:we continue with mark hal pir in, maggie haberman of politico. i'm pleased to have them her i cannot think of anybody i would rather talk to you trying to underis a stand the dynamics of the political process coming

out of the democratic convention. we taped this before the president speaks but we assume he's requesting to try to late out as much as he can the future. that's his role on thursday night. >> opening they saw coming out of tampa, roll out at some point before the general election. they made it clear the president was going to be a bit more specific what he would do in the second term. ig are vuerabityor his re-election as his first 4 years people want a sense of what he would do differently. if he can convince a second term in working with republicans, in addressing the economy would have more promise than he's displayed 0 far, he has a good chance ever winning. expect that not only be the message here but coming out of one of the weakest things about governor romney's -- no message out of. no single meage rememberhat said i tampa we're going to

drill it in your head. i think the the obama campaign will build off the president's thursday speech for the next few days on making it more concrete what would a second term be like. >> i thought the message reit raying of that idea that those people who voted for barack obama four years ago may not have a reason to vote for him and it's ok and we have all the confidence to make that selection one you will be proud of. >> you did a better job of distilling it than they did. he spent a part of his time after leaving tampa wandering around louisiana. >> charlie:and building on a theam he tried to articulate. >> it's not just that. everything i agree with but this is one area where romney leads the president. areas where he they think he's better. economic management piece. you have done a great kri particular on barack obamas

management. what are you going to do? they didn't say anything tbhat for three sraight nights. bill clinton wednesday night keyed in to why that was or at least tried to make the political argument what that was. they can't say what they would do. if they say what they would do and believe, they walk right in our trap which is all they believe is stale poll 6. >> charlie:bill clinton said. >> obama campaign believed they were boxed in. that's the argument they have been making. all these guys believe in taking back the stale poll 6 of the past. republicans do wanto cut tas on the rism, they do want to cut spending on middle chas and worse off. there eal in a prime to be slayed by not just those negative critiques but the president offering his own positive agenda. for a lot of independent and undecided who thick the economy

is the most important thing, they're not dumb. they want to be talked to like adults, he this they want to to see policies. a lot of them don't want to litigate the past. ok, how areyou going to get us out of this mess. they have a deep appreciation this is not a norm afl cyclical recession. they're pessimistic and aipg shut something they want to hear from both of thieves candidates. >> charlie:what are five take aways or 7 or 4 that you have of clinton last night. i had people say to me, it's as god of speech as i've ever seen him give. >> certainly the bst speech i have seen him give. i they he did it was serm too long. it was a mistake for the obama campaign to have him go last. the assumption people will still tune in.

people went to sleep tor because it went on 448 minutes and the closing was not really strong. i think he accomplished a ton in that speech. he did the current president a world of good. >> charlie:here is the question, why hasn't the president been able to do that himself? >> laugh) that the gre question. this president is not he spref good colleague wrote a piece about thvment he doesn't really communicate. c he doesn't communicate? >> he is tht good at selling himself. he has said this himself. effectively sell his own agenda. atbree with what john said about what he need to do tonight. if you're going to make the case mitt romney and republicans are not putting forward anything that's an alternative then you do need to offer something and how specific you get is the question. but how he sells it ao is t question. the first lady's speesm was very good political without being

overly political almost all biographical, policy woven in. bar being obama the man. i don't think they want to hear the story again. they want to hear about the future. >> charlie:you were going to say about why he had not said this before. >> first of all, it's a very high standard to judge anybody against bill clinton at a particular kind of thing. >> charlie:they ought to learn from bill clinton. >> they do. >> charlie:notaying anything you haven't said before. >> we're talking about a speech. getting up and doing public communication. bill clinton no one as political walk and mythical strategist and mix in the oracle gift. barack obamas or a tor. bill clinton is talker and persuader. you think about the ways in which he has a mastery of policy, he marshalls date at that and evidence and then

marries that up to incredibly plit wal strategy. it doesn't demean barack obama those are not his skill set. president clinton is not is that inspiring. think back to his -- >> charlie:best i heard brak church in memphis. >> very rare he would have peoplen their feet and in tears in the way barack obama has done over his career. it's an incredible skill he has. i think obama is never going to behat. >> charlie:this convention and we assume the president will perform well. everybody is teed tup and capable as we have seen in the other conventions. where does that lead the campaign? does this put them on a bump ra ject trito put this thing away? >> there's not much give right now in the elector at. i think it's possible that the president could get a 3 or 4 points out of this at least

temporary. 3 or 4. convention tend not to linger but that would be a pettyig. >> charlie:until the debate. >> until the debate. ability of us to sit in a cop vengs city, listen to the speeches, jump to the con clowg regular voters -- limited. president moves up to 50% after this in the national polls that would be significant. >> charlie:what's magical go 50%? >> the general view amongst some people in politics and certainly the romney campaign if you're uncided you're probably not going to be in the end for the president. an incumbent below if% on the election day often will lose. what mitigates against that which manies he could win even if he's at 48, 3 things. i think it's still an open question whether governor romney

alternative -- >> charlie:you agree on. open question whether he will be seen as an alternative. >> yes. >> two i still believe the obama ground game will be superior. that that could be worth an additional 1, 2 or 3 points in some places and finally the electoral college, barack obama is going to do very poorly in a lot of red states by recent standards in a mayor juror party candidate. what is true unless there's a disaster tonight, governor romney electoral college position sno better. >> charl:no ey pathor him. >> and he still has very few paths without having put florida away without having put in play pennsylvania, michigan having a tough time in ohio. there's just not a clear way for

him to get 270 electoral votes. that having been said he's probably exwetting close to 250, if things go well and spend more money. that's a close race if the loser is starting around 250 but he's not there. that means obama poll standing kerntly is not as bad as a different incumbent in a different race. >> the one thing i would say to that the romney theory, which is the challenger in -- undecide vote, 5% of undecided voters rule in politics lived wft president for 3 1/2 years clesser to 4 years. if they're not for him by now all they're looking for is an acceptable alternative. the he only slight twist is you have such interesting dynamics with the two and has people think ofhem which is to say governor romney holds a pretty wide lead the question of

economic management and that is the primary issue in america right now, the economy people care a lot about that. >> charlie:right. >> on the other hand he holds a wide deficit, likability, shares your values, trustworthy, honest. president has a wide lead there. what exactly the intermay of those forces within a tbifn undecided voter are. what are they looking for in the debate? an acceptable alternative or two things playing in their minds? he sounds like he knows more because he avenues business guy, i don't trust him he he seems alien to me. they have such stark differences work on micro level. it's not clear the dynamic romney gives 3 great debate performs a not clear the undecide you had will tip to him. i don't know that will happen. some mesa he's acceptable but in

the end not quite acceptable enough. >> i agree with everything john. one of the things that's been remarkable to me in the past week, we saw mitt romney not come pain on labor day. i don't want to overstress the appearance factor here. i can't remember the last time that happened mitt romney doesn't embrace the ceremonial aspects of this retail. forfeited fund raising as oppose today campaigning and presenting himself. swing states very, very controlled. i do think this matter. i don't think it can be 1 -- presenting the case right now signature on well over $150 million they're planning on use forking fall tiegz buy. there's so many ads on so many races and so many different entities super pacs campaigns it has to be a clear message to break through. the other message they focused

on is this welfare message about the gutting of welfare by president owe become ma. bill clinton did a lot to rebut that. that was a significant element of his speech. in 004 when he come pained for john kerry. campaign in massachusetts he had his heart issue, troubles had begun healthwise. he trade there weapt a carryover effect. when it's about his open policies it will have an effect. >> charlie:do you think we will see a lot of bill clinton on this campaign. >> i do. >> charlie:where is it going to go? wedon't know. >> global initial tivment i suspect he will go to a lot of battle ground states and do a version, maybe even a longer version of the speech he did last night and that will get a ton of coverage. what's powerful it speaks directly to the voters in play.

it speaks to married women, speaks to subject suburban, whir men. it gives people a sense of if you believe in bill clinton's val daig, this is the right way to go. thawill be powful the retail left. let me say one thing about romney. one does not get the sense his attitude unshackle me, let me go to ohio, put me on the ground i will win these people over. it's not a mayor or governor's race. one does not have sense his schedule his attitude is i can win this if people get to know me. >> charlie:what do we look for now between now and debate. >> mitt romney to hit the yobs numbers real hard. yobs report coming out torrow. they're prespin thg is going to be what counters the convention week. mitt romney going on sawnd hoe this weekend to drive that message. >> charlie:whatever those numbers are big surprise

continuation of what we've seen. >> speak he go of continuation of what we've seen, that's what we're going to see. i think we will see some more policy details get discussed but nothing dramatic. president obama's campaign is going to build off whatever his speech is tonig and clinton eech. i dot tnk you're going to see any surprises with beyond a glut of advertising. everything is static. there could be bounce out of had this convention but i don't expect it will chaipg the fundamentals of race. it is where it is. >> charlie:thank you. thank you for joining us. see you tomorrow night